.jpg)
Limitless Spirit
For the seekers of a greater purpose in life, opportunities to serve in missions and personal growth in Christ with host Helen Todd.
Limitless Spirit
Bread and Bibles: inspired by a hero
When was the last time you felt inspired by someone?
Discover how a man with humble beginnings and limited education became one of the most influential evangelists of the 1800s. Join us on Limitless Spirit as we welcome Dr. Gregg Quiggle, author of "Bread and Bibles," who shares his extensive knowledge and admiration for Dwight Moody. Learn about Moody's profound impact, his approach to ministry that emphasized simplicity, and his incredible dedication to Christ and social issues. Dr. Quiggle provides an in-depth look at Moody's life, revealing how his earnestness and humility continue to inspire modern-day evangelists and individuals seeking a greater purpose.
Learn more about Gregg Quiggle and his tours: https://quotelostravelservice.com/
Thanks for listening! Visit our website rfwma.org and follow us on Facebook :https://www.facebook.com/limitlessspiritpodcast/
and Instagram: @limitlessspiritpodcast
Help us make more inspiring episodes: https://rfwma.org/give-support-the-podcast/
Welcome to Limitless Spirit, a weekly podcast with host Helen Todd, where she interviews guests about pursuing spiritual growth, discovering life's purpose through serving others and developing a deeper faith in Christ.
Speaker 2:Welcome to this episode of the Limitless Spirit. I'm your host, helen Todd. When was the last time you felt inspired by a Christian leader? True heroes of faith leave a lasting impact even after they leave this earth. One of such heroes was a man who had a profound global influence in the age way before social media or even internet. Dwight Moody was an evangelist and a revivalist in the 1800s who believed that the gospel should be served, wrapped in love and action to relieve the suffering. His social justice was not political. It was an act of love and compassion.
Speaker 2:My guest today is Dr Greg Quiggle, who served as the professor of historical theology and dean of study abroad at the Moody Bible Institute, which is one of the several institutions founded by Dwight Moody. Great calls himself a Moody scholar and compiled his studies and personal admiration for Dwight Moody into his latest book, bread and Bibles. Whether you are familiar with Dwight Moody or hear of him for the first time right now, this interview will leave you energized to pursue your own greater purpose and encouraged by how simple are the steps towards an impactful life. Hello, greg, welcome to the Limitless Spirit. How are you today?
Speaker 3:Very fine, thank you. Great to be with you.
Speaker 2:I am looking forward to discussing your book. I really like the title of it. I find that intriguing Bread and Bibles. So is this your first book?
Speaker 3:Yes, it's my first full book. I've written numbers of chapters for other books and I've also presented numbers of academic papers. This is the first full book.
Speaker 2:So, obviously because the subject of the book is close to your heart. So, would you say, do you consider yourself Dwight Moody's biographer?
Speaker 3:I wouldn't say biographer, but I would say I have given a good portion of my life to studying his life, so maybe a better term is I'm a Dwight Moody scholar.
Speaker 2:That sounds good to me. So obviously, if you spent a lot of time studying his life, somehow, in some way he has inspired you or impacted you. So what would you say was the most impactful about his life or ministry for you personally?
Speaker 3:I think he comes from a very limited background. I think he comes from a very limited background and raised by a single mom. His father died when he was about four. Very poor, Limited education, maybe five years of formal education. His zeal, his humility, his willingness to address problems directly and practically I think these are all things that were and are encouraging and inspiring to me.
Speaker 2:You know, this podcast reaches people from all kinds of different walks of life and theological backgrounds, and really the purpose of the podcast is to inspire people to pursue their greater purpose in life, and so let's assume that maybe some of our listeners have never heard of DL Moody. So who was Dwight Moody and why is he important?
Speaker 3:who was Dwight Moody and why is he important? Dwight Moody was arguably the Billy Graham of the 19th century. In fact, Mr Graham modeled his entire ministry off of Mr Moody. You may remember, when Mr Graham died he made the statement someday you'll hear like Graham is dead, Don't you believe a word of it? He's more alive. That is a direct quote from Dwight Moody.
Speaker 2:Really.
Speaker 3:It is yes, and there's also. When I was going through his files, mr Graham wrote to Moody's daughter at one point and said I hope you understand all the ministries that have flown from your father's work. He also wrote to the Moody family to ask for details about Mr Moody's funeral because he wanted to incorporate elements of what was done for Mr Moody into his own funeral. So indirectly in that sense, the fact that anybody that's been influenced by Billy Graham has been influenced, whether they know it or not, by Dwight Moody. Dwight Moody was born in western Massachusetts, as they noted, very poor 1837. By the time he died he was probably the most well-known Christian in the English-speaking world. It's estimated he spoke either verbally or by writing to somewhere around 100 million people, which is extraordinary when you think about it which is extraordinary when you think about it, especially in that time frame where we didn't have social media and internet.
Speaker 2:So how was he able to make such a widespread impact?
Speaker 3:That's a very interesting question. I think Mr Moody won people over because of his earnestness. He was certainly not well-spoken. Charles Spurgeon some of your folks may know Spurgeon was a famous Baptist minister. They were friends. And Mr Spurgeon said White Moody's the only man I know who can say Mesopotamia in two syllables. He spoke outrageously fast, his spelling was awful. He wrote a letter to his brother and he was writing somewhere. The psalmist said and here's how he spelled psalmist S-A-I-M-E-S-T. And he spelled says S-A-I-S.
Speaker 3:One of my favorite stories is early on he starts Sunday school in the slums in Chicago and a guy goes to visit him. He's sitting on the step of a saloon. He would rent a saloon and hold a Sunday school there. And he goes and Mr Moody's sitting on the step of the saloon. There's a little African-American boy on his lap and he's trying to read the story of the prodigal son to this little boy and he can't read all the words so he has to skip some of the words as he's trying to read this to this boy and the man is just shocked. He walks up to him afterwards and you know, help me with this.
Speaker 3:And Moody said typical, dwight, I ain't got no education but I love Jesus and I want to do something for him. And that earnestness, that commitment to Christ. He was challenged by a man who once said the world has yet to see what God can do with one man totally committed to him. And Moody said man totally committed to him. And Moody said by God's grace, I'll be that man. I think that's it. So he wins over just scads of people because he is so earnest and so humble and so committed.
Speaker 3:He has wide respect among Roman Catholics, which was very rare. He was able to speak to the undergraduates at Oxford and Cambridge and at the same time slum kids in cities. His sermons were very simple, very practical, very direct, and so I think when you put all those things together, he was a guy who was able to connect to a vast audience of various levels of society for different reasons, but nobody ever thought Moody was a fraud or a shuckster or a heister. They knew he really believed what he was saying, he cared deeply and I think that that's what drove him. So, for example, in the 1870s he goes to Great Britain pretty much unknown. By the end of that tour he is in London and speaks to about two and a half million people during the London phase and you said about Internet and things that was even before microphones. So it's a remarkable story. So it's a remarkable story.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think it's really important today for the body of Christ, because it seems like, you know, we face so many challenges and there is a tendency to say, well, the world has become so calloused and people don't want to hear the gospel, people are not interested in God. I don't think the world today is any different than it was back in the days of DL Moody. You know it was facing maybe slightly different challenges, but nonetheless. And so when you hear that a person with such limited abilities compared to the abilities that we have today from the technical perspective, and perhaps not well-versed or well-educated, was able to reach these numbers, it's absolutely incredible and inspiring. So that's why I felt it's for the body of Christ today. This is a great conversation and thank you for reviving that story and that life and shedding the spotlight. So he came from a humble background. What were some of his personal struggles and challenges and how did he overcome them and became so prominent?
Speaker 3:I think he always struggled with senses of abandonment. You know when you lose your father when you're four years old and all that's involved in that. I think he also struggled with his lack of education. He was very vocal about repeatedly saying I don't have an education. The flip side to that is when he did everything he could learn, he would just surround himself with smart people and pound them with questions. He learned that way.
Speaker 3:He also lived in very challenging times. I mean we talk about the United States today being very divided. He lived during the Civil War and in fact, for those of you that know the American Civil War, he actually was a friend with General Grant, who was the major Union general. He was on the front nine times ministering to soldiers in battle. He ministered to Southern soldiers who were prisoners. So he lived in a time that was very challenging in terms of a country that's being ripped apart internally. He lived in a time where there were a lot of economic challenges, huge slum areas. Cities were just disastrous messes. For example, chicago, which is kind of his adopted city, 1837, a couple hundred people. By 1899, it's 1.7 million people. That's 63 years 63 years and in the 1870s 25% of it burned down the largest urban fire in the history of the world, and so overcrowding, pollution issues, racial tensions, ethnic you know, the Poles hated the Italians hated, the Irish hated the African Americans in the mix.
Speaker 3:It was a very difficult time and I think the way Moody dealt with that is really helpful. He never saw these things as primarily political issues. He saw them as personal challenges, and what I mean by that is the way Moody responded to issues was to sit down and figure out how can I address this practically now, and he would do that. So he started five schools. Most of them were for poor kids. He also was involved in raising money for orphans, feeding poor people, providing employment opportunities for people I can go on and on with this kind of stuff.
Speaker 3:So instead of coming into a town and saying this is terrible, you know, with this kind of stuff. So instead of coming into a town and saying this is terrible, you know, let's have a big demonstration or something he would say this is terrible, let's get everybody together, let's figure out what we can practically do to fix it. And I think there's something compelling about that. He just did it. He didn't argue about it, he just fixed it, and I think that's really compelling. I think it's compelling today. I think churches that are effective are churches that are actively involved, practically addressing the issues in their community, and I think that is compelling particularly young people today.
Speaker 2:I do believe that this generation and I'm talking about Gen Z, you know, and maybe a generation ahead of them they, I think they're leaning towards that type of faith, faith in action, and it's extremely admirable, and so there is that connection. I guess history reproduces itself, you know and so, but do you think that is applicable in the society that we live in today, that is so inflamed by the political divide, so that probably is a little bit of a different environment where everything is politicized. I mean, every action that you make inevitably is going to be categorized, you know, as some type of a political action. Do you think that is recreatable in the world that we live in today?
Speaker 3:I do and I'll give you two illustrations. One is from my home church. My home church Probably 45, 15 years ago. There was a woman in the congregation that began to notice that there were numbers of couples who had children with Down syndrome etc. And they were unable to attend church and they were also exhausted because of the stress of taking care of these children or adults as they grow up all the time. So she started a program. She started a Sunday school class for disabled children and started a dinner, a weekly dinner, with a program so you could drop your child off and have a night off. Nobody complained about that, nobody said you're trying to. There was no political. Today there's probably three or four hundred families. The church has purchased, I think, four houses where they have adults that are actually living in those homes. They have jobs in the communities. We have families that have come to know the Lord because they heard there was a place that would care for their children and they would start to bring them there and then they would say I wonder what this church is like and you can see how the progression goes Very practical. The other illustration is the current president of Nudy has a series of churches called I think they're called New Life in Chicago. They are constantly providing meals, tutoring for students, after school clothing, etc. Etc. Etc.
Speaker 3:Nobody that I know of has accused this church of engaging in politics. They know they're the place to care about the people in the community and I think that's what Mr Moody did. You know when he started? Well, he didn't start, but a group of men started what became known as Moody Church. The sign outside said always welcome at the house of God or the poor. And they just did. If you were poor, you could go there, you would be welcomed, and if you needed help, they would help you. Another illustration is rescue mission. I just was speaking to a group of rescue mission directors a month ago. They just do it. Where do drunk people go when they hit the rock bottom? Where do hungry people go on the rescue mission? They just keep on opening the door and bringing these folks in and I think if the church was more aggressive about that, then if they did want to say something politically, it would be processed differently. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:So I read a story about this lady that was criticizing DL Moody for a way that he was doing evangelism. And he asked her how was she doing evangelism? And she said she wasn't doing any evangelism. And he told her I like my way of doing it better than your way of not doing it. And so, absolutely great response, but with that in mind. So how was he viewed by his contemporaries? Was he admired? Was he criticized?
Speaker 3:Oh, he was almost universally admired. Yes, he got some criticism, but by and large, what is stunning about Mr Moody is the breadth of people who had nice things to say about him. There was a theological break going on between what they call fundamentalists and liberals in the late 1800s. Moody was liked by both sides of that argument. They both respected him. Roman Catholics respected him, and part of the reason I chose the title Bread and Bibles is because Moody never separated giving people bread from giving them the gospel. He had a commitment every day to share Christ with somebody at least one person every day and he saw no difference between that and making sure that a widow who didn't have money to bury her newly deceased husband had a funeral provided for. It was a seamless garment for Dwight and he just did it. He just did it and I think that's beautiful, beautiful.
Speaker 2:So was he affiliated with a certain denomination? What was his view on denominations within Christianity, since he was so universally liked?
Speaker 3:He respected denominations, but he was angry at denominations when they allowed their differences to interfere with doing the basic work of the gospel. So he has nothing against Presbyterians or Baptists or Episcopalians or Lutherans, but he had all kinds of problems with when they weren't spreading the gospel and taking care of the poor because they were too busy fighting about their differences. And so there's an old saying, you know keep the main thing. The main thing and the main thing for Moody was the gospel that human beings are ruined by sin. They're redeemed by Christ and they're regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and that's what he would preach over and over and over again. They're redeemed by Christ and they're regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and that's what he would preach over and over and over again.
Speaker 3:If he did preach on another subject, he would always say we're not going to split on this. For example, he was what's called pre-millennial, but he wouldn't. He would preach it, but he would say we're not going to divide on this. And he did address social questions. He was part of the temperance movement and wasn't afraid to speak about that. But at the same time, that wasn't the main thing.
Speaker 2:Again very applicable today, I believe, which the truth is it transcends times and cultures. So I remember reading that, actually, when he was growing up, his family, his mother, was a part of the Unitarian Church. So how did he become a Christian and who were some people that influenced him and poured into him?
Speaker 3:Yes, when his father died, the family was so far in debt. The debt collector showed up that day and stripped a lot of the things out of the house to pay off debts. His dad was a player and they had to hide his tools. He had collectors from taking those too, and so when the word got out small town, one of the people that showed up to help was the young Unitarian minister. He took Dwight under his arm. He became a father figure for him and because of that his mother took them to that church.
Speaker 3:Now, the Unitarianism at that time was kind of goofy because, for example, he was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit by a Unitarian, which isn't supposed to be. They're supposed to deny the Trinity. What this church and minister taught him is the power of love and concern. So how did he become a Christian? Later on in life he goes to Boston to make money 17, and he can't find a job. So he finds his uncle and his uncle says I'll make you a deal, I'll give you a job. You have to attend Sunday school.
Speaker 3:So he attended a congregational church, which was a conservative Trinitarian church at that time, and the Sunday school teacher Kimball was his last name had a burden about this young man and so he went to visit him at work and Moody said I don't even remember what he said, but I still can feel that man's hand on my arm and I would say Moody had a conversion experience, but very much like what a young child does, he tried to join the church and he couldn't even give a coherent testimony. Do I think he was converted? Yes, well, I think he understood what he was being converted to. No, so the bulk of his life, from the age 17 on, is really deepening his understanding to what he has committed himself to. But I would say there's something key that happens when he's 17, and I think his Christian faith really matures in Chicago about three or four years later.
Speaker 2:You know, I think his story. I find it personally very inspiring because, you know, leading a missions organization. To me this is just a great snapshot of how it works. You know it's the power of love. When you share the gospel, you don't have the time or ability to convey a theological message. Well, and nobody's looking for a theological message or theology. But if you can show love, show Christ's love to a person, you're making an impact on this person forever. And the Sunday school teacher that made, and the uncle that said I want you to go to Sunday school to you know, earn money that every bit of that mattered to make Dwight Moody the person that he was an evangelist, a revivalist and I think that that's a great reminder for each one of us that we have that ability and it doesn't take anything great from us to do that.
Speaker 3:Yes, and Mr Moody also understood the value of theology, but he understood it in terms of steps. So I think it's significant that he became an educator. He was this uneducated guy, but he understood well. Again, bread and Bible yes, if you just give them bread without the Bible, then you're just charity. If you give them the Bible without bread, then you're not demonstrating Christian love. You have to do both. So Christianity is a matter of you have to do both. So Christianity is a matter of A loving people. But it's also a matter of instructing and teaching them and guiding them and mentoring them.
Speaker 3:And Moody understood the role that God had placed him for. But he also understood that there were other people that needed to do the things he could not do, and rather than setting himself up in opposition to them, he saw it as a team. You know, this is my job. I'm the guy that is the front guy, but I need the people behind me. Who will do the people like Charles Spurgeon? Who will do the people like Charles Spurgeon? Spurgeon is going to instruct them in ways in doctrine and theology I cannot. And so he was able to keep those things tension's not the right word in order and saw them as complementary, not contradictory.
Speaker 2:Well, I am looking forward to reading this book and thank you for taking time to write it, because I think it's a wonderful moment in church history to revive the story of Dwight Moody and hopefully inspire many more people on this path of winning souls for Christ and being bread and Bibles, bringing bread and Bibles to them. Well, you mentioned to me before our interview that you have a Christian travel company. Let's talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 3:Yes, I was on the faculty of Moody Bible Institute for 36 years and about the last 20 of those years, in addition to teaching, I ran something called the Study Abroad Program and I began to see the value of taking people to other places in the world for two reasons To help them understand their faith, the origins of their faith, but also to help them understand other parts of the world. So I do tours, primarily related to Reformation things, in Germany and Switzerland, italy, england, cs Lewis, virgin, moody people like that. Occasionally I do New Testament things, Greece, etc. Israel's pretty tough right now, but especially the European things. It's important that people understand where their faith came from.
Speaker 3:Number one. Number two too many people don't understand how secular Europe has become and too many people do not think to either pray for Europe or consider Europe as a mission field. You know we've just had the opening ceremony in France and all the noise about what happened with parts of that and it was offensive and et cetera, et cetera. People don't understand how absolutely unchristian France is. It's about 1%. Now they're all going to say they're Catholic. I think.
Speaker 2:Oh, they aren't, they aren't even.
Speaker 3:Catholic, yeah, and so you know, when was the last time anybody challenged people to pray for France or Germany or Italy or Switzerland? When was the last time somebody said you know, you ought to think about a young person investing your life and spreading the gospel in France? And so part of what I do with these tours is try to get them not only to learn about John Calvin or Martin Luther, but also to give them a sense of what is happening there. Give them a sense of what is happening there and to think about the church worldwide and how different it is than our experience in the United States.
Speaker 3:I have a little church in Germany, in a town called Regensburg 250,000. It's like a white movie story. They rent a bar. They meet in a bar Sunday morning. I've never seen a sermon before where I'm looking at the pastor and right beside him are bottles of Jack Daniel's whiskey. But that's where they are. That's all they've got. This small group in this town of 250,000 people, town of 250,000 people, and they're that little light in the midst of darkness and they could stand our prayers.
Speaker 2:You know, our organization has actually done missions in Eastern but also Western Europe, and I remember our mission in France, and we were in the city of Lyon and, in partnership with the local church, we were doing street evangelism, and so we struck a conversation with a group of teens and, interestingly, they were quite open. You know, they were willing to talk to us and there was maybe six or seven of them, 15, 16-year-olds, and none of them has ever read the Bible or been introduced to the gospel message ever, and that was very eye-opening, and so they left with Bibles. We had Bibles in French with us and we gave them to them. But you're right, this is very, very important. Well, we're going to post a link to your company for those who might be interested in doing this adventure, as well as your book. I'm sure it can be found on Amazon. Probably is the best.
Speaker 3:Yes, amazon's the best place to get it and it's Moody Publishers book.
Speaker 2:And it's called Bread and Bibles.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you so much, Greg, for this conversation, and I am looking forward to reading your book.
Speaker 3:Thank you, thanks for reading it and thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:I hope you were blessed by this interview. Remember, every day you encounter people who need Jesus, who need hope, a breakthrough. If you know Christ as your Savior, you are equipped to help them. I encourage you to go to Amazon and pick up Greg Quiggle's book Bread and Bibles to inspire you to connect with your own greater purpose. Perhaps you even decide to join Dr Quiggle in one of his exploratory trips to Europe to learn more about the history and heroes of the church. I'm posting a link to his website in the show notes, so check it out In the meantime. Here at World Missions Alliance, we like to say changed lives, change lives. Your test becomes your testimony and your faith and your testimony combined make you an unstoppable force to lead others to Christ. I invite you to check our website rfwmaorg and discover opportunities for you to serve in the Great Commission and be used by the Lord to build His kingdom. Until next time, I'm Helen Todd.
Speaker 1:Limitless Spirit Podcast is produced by World Missions Alliance. To build His kingdom. Until next time, I'm Helen Todd. Christ called his followers to make disciples across the world. World Missions Alliance gives you an opportunity to do this through short-term missions in over 32 countries across the globe. If you want to help those who are hurting and hopeless and discover your greater purpose in serving, check out our website rfwmaorg and find out how to get involved.