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Limitless Spirit
For the seekers of a greater purpose in life, opportunities to serve in missions and personal growth in Christ with host Helen Todd.
Limitless Spirit
Limitless Spirit Podcast: Brian Zahnd on the meaning of the cross
Why did Jesus have to die on the cross?
Brian Zahnd, pastor and author of "The Wood Between the Worlds," talks with host Helen Todd about the intricate dimensions of the mystery of the cross, including capital punishment, war, and the distinction between divine and human violence. Hear about the early church's evolving perspectives on these contentious topics and Brian's position on how the cross embodies God’s forgiveness through enduring human violence, rather than divine retribution. They also touch on the aesthetic and contemplative aspects of the cross, highlighting its beauty and spiritual significance, while Brian gives us a sneak peek into his upcoming work, "Paths of Unseen Existences."
Check out Brian Zahnd's sermons: https://www.youtube.com/@WOLCTV/
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Welcome to Limitless Spirit, a weekly podcast with host Helen Todd, where she interviews guests about pursuing spiritual growth, discovering life's purpose through serving others and developing a deeper faith in Christ.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Limitless Spirit. I'm your host, helen Todd. If you are a follower of Christ, the cross is a symbol that has sacred significance to you. But why? What does it really mean? Terrifying and beautiful, an instrument of a torturous death, yet a hope of a better life, the cross is a mystery without a simple, one-sentence explanation. My guest today, pastor Brian Zond, is the founder and lead pastor of the Word of Life Church in St Joseph Missouri. He's also a very popular author and in his latest book, the Wood Between the Worlds, he brings the spotlight to the cross, comparing it to a kaleidoscope that reveals a new geometric image with every turn. The cross, according to Brian, is about the nature of God, but also about politics. It is about love and violence. It has shaped art, music, literature and history. And, of course, as every good book, this book and this conversation is not without a controversy or two. Hello, brian, welcome to the Limitless Spirit. How are you today?
Speaker 3:I am fine, Helen. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:I was really contemplating which one of your books to choose for our discussion, but I decided to settle on the latest one. I hope this is okay with you.
Speaker 3:It's okay with me. I like them all. The latest makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:And I will be transparent with you. I have just discovered you as an author and so I am incredibly intrigued and your latest book, the Wood Between the Worlds. I think it's really a beautiful concept, so I have not read it yet. So it's going to be an interesting conversation. I'm exploring it and I think it's going to be very relatable to our readers who may not have read this book, which that's the point right To introduce the book to them. So bear with me, I will be asking a lot of questions because I'm very intrigued, I'm exploring it. So we'll start with a question what prompted you to devote a book to this subject?
Speaker 3:Well, there is a whole story to this and it's told in the first part of the book. But you haven't read that, so I will tell you.
Speaker 2:I have read that part, so I already kind of know the answer. I'm going to tell it again. Anyway, I have done my homework.
Speaker 3:In 2016, my wife Perry and I were, for the first time, walking the Camino de Santiago Now, we've walked it four times in total, but this was our first time. Santiago Now, we've walked it four times in total, but this was our first time. And for those that don't know and many won't know this is an ancient, or, let's say, medieval pilgrim path that the most popular route these days begins in Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port, france, and then you cross the Pyrenees and walk across almost all of northern Spain to Santiago de Compostela, and that's a walk of 500 miles. So we were doing that for the first time, and it was September 14th. That was our first day, 2016, which happens to be, on the church calendar, holy Cross Day. I don't think I knew that at the time, but in retrospect I realized that's what the day was, and the first day is a hard day. It's like 15 miles and you cross the Pyrenees and all the pilgrims stay in the same place, because there's only one place to stay. You stay at this monastery in Ronson's Valle, spain, and so we'd got there and I went into the chapel at the monastery. Then I was just sitting there, you know, after a long day, just sitting, really I wasn't doing anything, but I noticed the crucifix and I kind of looked at it. And as I looked at the crucifix in this chapel, in this monastery, I felt like the Holy Spirit gave me some instructions. I felt like the Spirit said for you know, during this it turned out to be 40 days. We didn't know how long it was going to take to walk 500 miles. It turned out it was 40 days for us.
Speaker 3:Enter every church. You can pay attention to the crucifix, ask what does this mean and don't be too quick to give an answer. Isn't that interesting? So that's, I just felt like that was some instruction, some guidance, some direction, specific instructions too. Yeah, so the nature of this pilgrim path, the Camino de Santiago, is there's lots of churches, so numerous times a day, most days there was an opportunity to enter a church or something like that, and I did that.
Speaker 3:I would look at the crucifix, pay attention to it, ask what does this mean? You understand, you know I'm a pastor, you know, and I've been pastoring, preaching, teaching for decades, so I could assume that I know what it means. But the instruction was no, ask what this means and don't be too quick to give an answer. And so I just would look at it and think, what does this mean? And then and then just ponder, and as I continued to walk, I could think what does this mean?
Speaker 3:And one of the things that stood out was because this was a walking pilgrimage, I wasn't seeing the same crucifix. I was seeing different ones every time and although essentially it's the same it's Christ crucified they were presented all in different ways. Sometimes, in some of them, christ was alive, and some he was dead, and some he looked regal, and some you could apparently, you could clearly see his suffering, and so there are many ways of depicting Christ upon the cross, and that that kind of worked on me. That kind of worked on me. And so it wasn't until about what would it be? Six or seven years later that I finally thought okay, I've meditated on this, I've thought about this. Now I'm ready to say some things about what I think. In part, this means Christ upon the cross. That's the origin of the book, so it begins in 2016 and it came out. The book came out earlier this year, so it begins in 2016 and it came out.
Speaker 2:The book came out earlier this year. So, as you, I'm just curious did you take the pictures of different?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I did, I did. I have, yeah, and some of them. Some of them are in the book. There's, I think, 16 pictures in the book. They're either public domain photographs of famous crosses and paintings or some of them are my own, so yeah, so some of them show up in, because the book actually has those images.
Speaker 2:So the title of the book is very intriguing as well, and the subtitle of it is A Poetic Theology of the Cross. So let's try to unpack this. What is this book? Is this a theological work? Is it a book of poetry? Is it a mix of both? What did you have in mind, or did you have anything in mind? Or it's just your reflections on that journey and experience? Or it's just your reflections on that journey and experience?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a good question. It is a theology of the cross, but I am not limiting my means of communicating theology of the cross to academic prose, or even prose, non-academic prose. So what I'm doing, even though it says poetic theology of the cross, it's not a book of poetry although there is some poetry in it but rather in communicating what I see when I look upon the very center of Christian faith, christ crucified I am allowing myself to draw upon not just typical theology written in prose, but poetry, yes, but also film and art and music, all of that sort of thing. So if you notice, as you read the book, you'll notice that film and novels and music and, of course, yes, image painting, that sort of thing will show up regularly, and I found that that was a very helpful way to begin to explore the depth of the mystery of christ crucified, because the worst thing that can happen is that we just think the cross means one thing that we can sum up in a single sentence and ta-da, we're done with it, and I wanted to really get away from that, and so so it's. I haven't.
Speaker 3:I haven't talked about this book for a little bit because I've been gone. I can't remember even how many chapters it has. It's got 19,. Yes, 19 chapters and then a poem at the end. So, and each chapter is sort of a standalone meditation on what I see when I encounter the cross. So it's 19 or 20 different. Well, I use the term kaleidoscopic. You know a kaleidoscope. You look at it, you look through it, you point it at the light, you see the colors and the geometric designs, and then you turn the kaleidoscope and you have new designs and new colors. And so I'm asking the reader to join me in a kaleidoscopic view of the cross, because the cross is not just one thing, the cross is many things. And so if I have 20 different takes on the meaning of the cross in this book, I'm not saying there are 20. I'm saying, quite possibly, the infinite nature of God is present at the cross, so that indeed, the depth of meaning could be potentially infinite. But I'm going to give you 20.
Speaker 2:And I love that concept, and perhaps this question should be asked at the end of the interview, but I somehow feel compelled to ask this now. You know we read books for various reasons, and especially when it comes to books of theology or books about Christianity. We read it either to learn something you know, go deeper into the doctrine, or we read some type of a self-help book that explores an aspect of Christianity that helps us somehow heal our brokenness. So why would someone read this book? What would they hope to take away from your book about the cross?
Speaker 3:Well, there's actually more than one question, I think, there in that, and so I have to respond in a couple of different ways. First of all, the cross really does seem to be the very focal point of human history. I mean, just take a step back, because we're so used to seeing either a cross or a crucifix it's ubiquitous in Western culture that we can maybe lose sight of how strange it actually is. You know how many crosses and crucifixes have been produced Billions. It's the most depicted artistic image in human history. And yet isn't this strange? The most depicted image in human art endeavor is that of a man nailed to a tree being tortured to death. Again, we're sort of used to that. But I think we should first maybe recover some of the scandal, some of the shock of it.
Speaker 3:And I mentioned early in the book this image is not in the book mainly because we couldn't find who the cartoonist was to get permission. I don't know if my publisher would have allowed me to put it in there anyway, but I describe it and it's just a single panel cartoon and in the cartoon aliens have landed their flying saucer on Earth. You get the feeling that this is their arrival on planet Earth. They've got out of their flying saucer, these two aliens, and they happen to have landed their flying saucer right next to a large, life-size roadside crucifix, the kind you see typically in Spain. And so here are these two aliens, just arrived on planet Earth, standing and looking at a crucifix, having no reference point, not knowing what it means, and one alien says to the other you know what we need to do? We need to get the F out of here. That's what we need to do, which the absurdity of it is kind of the humor, but actually that cartoon helps us literally see the cross through alien eyes, that is, eyes that are not used to it.
Speaker 3:And so what does it mean that at the center of human culture is this event? And as Christians, it is, of course, clearly the center of Christian faith. But what does it mean? I mean, I think most Christians would be inclined to say that it's where our sins are forgiven. True enough, and that's why I think I begin at that point. The first thing I talk about is how we associate the cross with forgiveness. But how does that work? And so I explore that, but that's not the end of the story, I mean, and so I explore that, but that's not the end of the story. I mean there's a whole lot more. The entirety of whatever salvation is, however deep and wide it is, whatever is accomplished in what we call salvation, comes from the cross. And, by the way, helen, when I say cross, I should be clear that I mean cross in the light of resurrection. So I'm holding cross and resurrection together. I mean and the light of resurrection. So I'm holding cross and resurrection together.
Speaker 2:I mean without the resurrection. You went there. I was hoping to hear that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, without the resurrection, the cross is nothing. I mean, we sometimes think you know that somehow the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth was some sort of unique. It was not unique. The Romans crucified literally hundreds of sort of unique. It was not unique. The Romans crucified literally hundreds of thousands of people. I mean, one of the scandals of Good Friday is that Jesus was just but one of three that day. And so, without the resurrection, first of all, you never hear of Jesus. So when the New Testament talks about the cross and when I write about the cross we mean the crucified and risen Christ, that it's all held together.
Speaker 2:So they say don't judge a book by its cover, but I don't think it applies to this particular book.
Speaker 3:I hope you can judge this book by the cover, because the cover is gorgeous. It's stunning. This is an audio-only podcast, right?
Speaker 3:Yes, unfortunately, it's a shame, folks, You're going to have to. You know, even if you don't buy the book, you ought to just go to Amazon and look at the cover, Although that doesn't do it justice, you know, to see an image on Amazon or wherever, it is a gorgeous book and I mean I'm not boasting here because I didn't design the cover, so I have to ask who did? I forgot the name of the graphic designer at IVP, but I have thanked them. I sent them a little letter and it's gorgeous Now. I mean, I was involved in helping some general concepts and they gave me various choices and I picked some things, and the images on the cover actually come from some of the art images that I've selected during the book, but still, just the way it's done.
Speaker 2:It is absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 3:I'm not exaggerating, at least on my own behalf, when I say I think it's about the most beautiful book cover I've ever seen. I just love it.
Speaker 2:I have to agree, and I think that's important too, because I mean it's the whole experience right. I know we read books on our tablets nowadays and everything, but there is something to be said about the visual experience of picking up a book and taking in this gorgeous cover and flipping the pages up a book and taking in this gorgeous cover and flipping the pages.
Speaker 3:Well, we're touching on something here too that's very significant theologically. So I'm looking at my cover of the book here and there is, at least in part, an image of Christ upon the cross. And we are used to seeing certain art images. I'm thinking of Montaigne's crucifix that hangs in the Louvre in Paris. If you look at it and you go, that's beautiful, that's sort of a natural response. I mean, people look at it and go that's beautiful, and it is. And yet, hold on, folks, how can this be? It's a depiction again of a Galilean Jew being tortured to death upon a cross in the first century. How does that become beautiful? Well, it's because, look, let me say it this way, if we had a journalistic photograph of the actual event on Good Friday, circa AD 30, we might look at it once, regret that we had, and never look at it again. It wouldn't be beautiful, it would be disturbing, it would be grotesque, upsetting, it would just be nothing but the brutality and the horror of a man being put to death in the most shameful and painful way. So somebody might say well, wait a minute.
Speaker 3:Then, when artists depict the crucifixion of Christ in terms of beauty, are they making a mistake? No, they are not making a mistake. The role of the artist is not that of the journalist. The journalist just deals in the raw data. Just here's the facts. The artist part of their task is to alert us to what we may have overlooked. And there is more going on at the cross than just the crucifixion of a Galilean Jew under Pontius Pilate. Well, it's the salvation of the world, it's the beauty of God forgiving the sins of the world. There is beauty there, and so when an artist depicts this in terms of beauty, it's actually a statement of faith, and I love that.
Speaker 2:So let's jump into the book. I know we're obviously not going to go through every single aspect of the cross that you're touching on, and that would be up to those that's called reading the book. Exactly, but let's talk about maybe some of the most interesting or surprising thoughts that you captured, and do you feel like these were revelations that you received during your pilgrimage, or it's something?
Speaker 3:that came to you as you were pondering and looking back at your pilgrimage. Well, some of the things that I draw out would be things that I basically have always believed about the cross. Others were brand new, in fact. I'll give you an example. Chapter 15 is titled the Sword-Pierced Soul of Mary, and when I had my original outline for this book, that chapter was not in it. But I had a dream while writing the book. I was about halfway through and I had a dream that I wrote about Mary, the mother of Jesus at the cross, and her experience and how that might speak to us. And so, having that dream, I thought well, I think I'm supposed to do this, and so that in fact surprised me, that I would write a chapter on the experience of the mother of Jesus at the cross. So that would be an example of something that surprised me. I like the chapter.
Speaker 3:I don't know if this is answering the question, but one of my favorite chapters to write was chapter 10, one Ring to Rule them All. Clearly I'm drawing upon Tolkien and I'm not going to try to necessarily unpack that chapter. Now the cross brings an indictment toward the unrestrained pursuit of political power. Again, I'm not going to try to unpack all that here, but I enjoyed writing that. I guess that's the right word. I did enjoy it because I got to work with Tolkien and that was good, and I think maybe my favorite chapter is chapter 19, the final chapter before the long poem at the end of the book, the center that holds and yeah, I don't know what I'm working with some Yeats poetry there and I'm talking about how, how, in one sense, everything falls apart. On the other hand, there is a center that holds and that center is found at the cross and, in one sense, on the cross Jesus is reaching. Center that holds and that center is found at the cross and, in one sense, on the cross, jesus is reaching out and holding all things together. This is alluded to in Paul's epistle to the Colossians. So I don't know. All I know is the more I sit with the cross, that is, in contemplation, the more I see, and that's why I do think it's probably inexhaustible contemplation, the more I see, and that's why I do think it's probably inexhaustible. And so you know, I wrote a book that's 200 and some pages and it's 19 chapters.
Speaker 3:I suppose I could. I'm sitting here at my writing desk. I could start today and write another. You know 19 chapters. It just takes being patient, sitting, not being in a hurry, not wanting to say Well, the cross means this and we have a theological sentence, and it's like. I'm all done. Now Next question, please. I think that is a very cavalier way to approach the cross and we should maintain both kind of shock and fascination at the same time and allow it continually to, over and over and over, speak to us at the same time, and allow it continually to, over and over and over speak to us.
Speaker 2:Do you think some parts of your book might be surprising or even controversial?
Speaker 3:Oh, yes, yes, yes, I'm quite sure of that.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about that, people.
Speaker 3:The book has been very well received, so I'm happy. But I mean I address, for example, chapter 14 is the cross and capital punishment. That would be a chapter that's only controversial in America. It's really not controversial with Christians in other parts of the world, but it's. How do we understand capital punishment in the light of the cross? So if capital punishment can go so wrong that it's capable of committing the greatest injustice in human history, that is, the execution of the innocent one, the truly sinless one, then maybe we need to rethink the whole idea of capital punishment, as in fact the early church did. The early church universally rejected it. Now, later on, once the church begins to be entangled with empire, from Constantine on, and then we get into the medieval period, those views change, but for the first 300 years the church was universally opposed to the death penalty. Same with the chapter that's entitled War is Over. If you Want it, the cross is a critique of war. That would be controversial. And also, just what is the source of violence at the cross? The cross is a violent thing, but what is the source? Is it divine violence or is it human violence? And so I would say it like this, even though I don't see it as controversial. The Orthodox Church doesn't see it as controversial, but some do.
Speaker 3:The cross is not what God inflicts upon Jesus in order to forgive. The cross is what God in Christ endures as he forgives. And so when the son prays, father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. The son is not acting as an agent of change upon the father. The father doesn't change. The father is immutable. This is basic theology. Rather, the son is revealing Father doesn't change. The Father is immutable. This is basic theology. Rather, the Son is revealing who the Father is. So we might imagine the response. When Jesus says, father, forgive them, we might imagine the Father saying something like of course, son, that's who we are, you know, think about all.
Speaker 3:Through John's gospel, jesus repeatedly says things like I only do what the Father does, I only say what the Father says. The Father and I are one. If you've seen me, you've seen the Father. So the cross is not where God gains the wherewithal to forgive. The cross is the moment where the sin of the world, coalescing into a hideous singularity, is absorbed by God in Christ that it might be forgiven in mass. That departs from how Anselm and later Calvin understood forgiveness. So if somebody is a really hardcore Calvinist, they're going to find it controversial, but most won't.
Speaker 2:Interesting. This is something to think about. I don't know what I specifically think about this at this moment, but you know, that's the point of the book, I think is to maybe, from what I'm gathering, you know, and the research that I have done, maybe not come to certain conclusions, but encourage you to think and explore deeper and really spend some time in contemplating the cross and what it means to you, and also look at, gaze at the beauty of it. Like you mentioned, there is beauty in the whole aspect of the cross. That is part of worship, and you don't always have to read books to fix something or to learn something. I think that's. What makes this book stand out to me is that it could be read as an act of worship, as gazing at the beauty of God and contemplating.
Speaker 3:I love that.
Speaker 2:Even if you have a different view or opinion. You know there is carving out the time of contemplating on the beauty of God and the perfection of his plan. That's a form of worship.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 2:I love.
Speaker 3:That I would completely agree with that. In fact, the 17th chapter, the Heroine of Hell, I incorporate a lot of the lyrics of early Christian hymns, you know from the first, second, third, fourth, fifth centuries, and it's very. I think people will find it very interesting how the first Christians sang about the cross and how somehow Satan was defeated and humanity is saved through the cross, and so I'll let people explore that on their own, but I think they'll find that fascinating.
Speaker 2:That's very interesting and I suspect that our readers are going to want to know more about what you think and maybe even some other books that you have written, and I understand that there is a YouTube channel that your church hosts on YouTube. Youtube channel that your church hosts on YouTube.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you can find all my sermons there. I mean, if people just Google Brian Zahn and spell it right, z-a-h-n-d, you'll find. You know, I had a blog. I mean I don't use it very often because I think all the podcasters killed the blogs and then the sub stacks. But I mean you can find my books you know everywhere and you can find the books you know online and be able to order those and what we do. And the sermons are there at WOLC TV. But if you just Google Word of Life Church, you'll find that. Or Google Brian Zahn, you'll find I'm pretty active on some of the social media platforms. Try to use that as a forum for mostly for what I would consider public theology, although you'll also find me now and then posting things just on music or travel or whatever. That's a little bit interesting for some.
Speaker 2:So sounds like this is not going to be your last book. You've been a prolific writer, so is there something else in the works already? Can we peek into that?
Speaker 3:Sitting at my writing desk. I know people can't see this. Here's the notebook for what I'm working on. I'm a little more than halfway through book number 12, which has the title Paths of Unseen Existences, with the subtitle being the Pilgrimage of the Soul Toward Our True Home. But that's another book and it's only halfway done, but I'm trying to be done by the end of the year. I'm going to meet with some of my editors, in fact later this week, and they kind of want to know where I'm at on this. And I'm kind of funny. Most authors aren't this way but I keep everything really secret until I'm done with the manuscript. I don't like to just give the editors here's a new chapter. I just wait till I'm completely done, and so they would tell me well, we're all excited, but what do you write?
Speaker 2:I said, just wait, I'll give you an entire manuscript by the end of the year. Well then, you're not going to like my next question because I'm going to cry into it. So, judging by the title, this new book, is it echoing the theme of NT Wright's book Surprised by Hope?
Speaker 3:I'm very influenced by NT Wright. I've met Tom Wright a time or two, even had dinner with him a few years ago. He certainly influences me. I can't remember if I've quoted him yet in Paths of Unseen Existences, but it really is trying to alert and one sense I am recovering the hope of heaven that this life is a journey. This life is significant, this life matters, but this life is penultimate. This life is a midway world. We are moving toward our true home, home in one sense being a place where we've never been but we're trying to get to, and so that's kind of what it's about.
Speaker 2:I love that book specifically.
Speaker 3:I like most of his writings, but surprisingly Surprised by Hope I probably have been able to convince at least 100 pastors, and maybe more, to read that book, especially when it first came out in like 2009,. Maybe I don't know when it was.
Speaker 2:It might be a strong statement, but I like to say that this is one of the most important books outside of the Bible.
Speaker 3:that I completely agree, Helen.
Speaker 2:This book kind of made me think that. You know, since he presents the New Testament from the perspective of the resurrection, perhaps your book is attempting to do the same, but show it from the perspective of the cross and the crucifixion.
Speaker 3:Would you say that Ultimately they're held together, but we can emphasize one or the other in a particular moment.
Speaker 2:And so, then, that should give you a well-rounded view. Well, thank you so much for this interview. I do think this is going to be an excellent read for anyone who is listening to this interview, and we will definitely post the link to your YouTube channel as well. Looking forward to your next book, I hope it won't be too long before it's out and ready.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Helen.
Speaker 2:I personally look forward to reading the Wood Between the Worlds. Whether you agree fully with Brian Zahn's theology, whether you enjoy poetry or not, the more time you spend contemplating on the beauty of God and what he has done for us, the more you become like him. Follow the link in the show notes to check Brian's sermons Google him, read his book. The message of the cross and the resurrection is the message of hope to this world, and we are called to share it with those near us and those who are far. We adopt the sacrificial nature of Christ when we're willing to leave behind our comfort zone and self-interest and travel half across the world to share the good news. At World Missions Alliance, we open for you monthly opportunities to do so through short-term missions. If you visit the website rfwmaorg, you will discover ways to explore and fulfill the Great Commission. Until next time, I'm Helen Todd.
Speaker 1:Limitless Spirit Podcast is produced by World Missions Alliance. We believe that changed lives change lives. If your life was transformed by Christ, you are equipped to help others experience this transformation. Christ called his followers to make disciples across the world. World Missions Alliance gives you an opportunity to do this through short-term missions in over 32 countries across the globe. If you want to help those who are hurting and hopeless and discover your greater purpose in serving, check out our website, rfwmaorg, and find out how to get involved.