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Limitless Spirit
Feeling stuck in the daily grind? Longing for a spiritually rich and meaningful life? Limitless Spirit with Helen Todd is for those who crave a deeper faith, a greater purpose, and opportunities to serve beyond themselves. Through powerful stories and real conversations, this podcast explores how stepping out in faith—whether through mission trips, discipleship, or simply saying ‘yes’ to God—can change your life from surviving to thriving.
Limitless Spirit
What is Cultural Intelligence And Why It Matters?
World migration has 281 million people today living in countries and culture not their own. How can the church meet the needs of multicultural congreagations? Do we have to adjust theology to reach the people of different cultures with the Gospel?
Host Helen Todd talks with Osoba Otaigbe, about the role of cultural intelligence in today's diverse church settings. Osoba, a Baptist minister and author, provides an interesting perspective on how cultural backgrounds may influence the interpretation of scripture, using the parable of the prodigal son to illustrate these differences. The conversation delves into the concept of cultural intelligence, its methods, goals and pitfalls.
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Welcome to Limitless Spirit, a weekly podcast with host Helen Todd, where she interviews guests about pursuing spiritual growth, discovering life's purpose through serving others and developing a deeper faith in Christ.
Speaker 2:Welcome to another episode of Limitless Spirit. Have you recently assessed yourself or your church for cultural intelligence? If you don't know what cultural intelligence is and you don't know why it matters to you, today's episode is a great place for you to learn. According to World Migration Report, in the year 2024, there are 281 million people living in countries and cultures that are not their own as international migrants. Immigration and its effect on cultures is a sore spot in political debates, but how does the church equip itself to navigate multicultural congregations and how do we effectively share the gospel across cultural barriers?
Speaker 2:My guest today is Asoba Otaibe, and our conversation is the proof that there are no simple answers to the many challenges of cross-cultural ministry. Answers to the many challenges of cross-cultural ministry Osilva Otaibi wrote a book called Building Cultural Intelligence in Church and Ministry. He is a Baptist minister who works for the Bible Society in the United Kingdom and he is also the host of Intercultural Church and City Transformation Gathering. He brings a valuable perspective to the issue of cultural intelligence. However, as you will hear from the interview, while we agree on the end goals, we do not necessarily agree on all the methods of overcoming these challenges. Let's dive in. Good morning, Asoba, or better say good afternoon in the United Kingdom. While it's morning here in Missouri, I think late afternoon in the UK. How are you today?
Speaker 3:I'm good. Good morning, Helen. Great to meet you. I'm really good. It's been a lovely day here today.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for agreeing to do this interview. I know you're very busy, but I think that the subject of our conversation is very important, because cultural diversity is shaping every aspect of society today. So why do you think cultural intelligence is such a pressing issue for churches and ministries, and even Christians in general?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's a very good question. I mean three key things and church members. As immigration, cross-cultural interactions and even technological advances make diverse communities more common these days, leaders should understand and navigate cultural differences to engage effectively with members from different backgrounds, whether addressing the unique needs of refugees, integrating cultural traditions into worship or fostering unity across ethnic, generational or national divides. So cultural intelligence enables leaders to build inclusive, compassionate ministry that appreciates cultural diversity, but also to build trust and create welcoming environments where people feel valued and ultimately just promoting unity in God's purpose. But I think it's good to kind of explain what is cultural intelligence.
Speaker 2:I think it's good to and we're going to jump right into this.
Speaker 3:But before we go there, I want to ask what are the consequences that churches or individuals face? When you look at the Bible, the Bible clearly speaks of the idea and truth of a one God who created all human beings. But also the Bible talks about one family adopted as a family of God. No Jews, no Gentiles, all family of God were adopted. Then there's the one mission all called to the Great Commission, go and make disciples. But also one message, the message of love, grace, redemption, shalom, love God, love your neighbor as you love yourself. Then there's the one spirit who enables us one audience to all nations. Then there is also the final destination. Revelation 7 talks about a multitude of people from all nations, language, people before the throne worshiping, and I think if we don't connect across culture, we lose the essence of that oneness. You know that one family, that one mission. We are adopted and we are called to love one another. I think one key thing is it's easy to love those who are like us, but it's more challenging to love those who are not like us. But we are called to love all and to reach all nations. We should be able to connect with others. And apart from that too, I think read the Bible. Culture shapes the way we read and interpret the Bible.
Speaker 3:In my book I did share a story. In my book, building Cultural Intelligence in Church and Mission, I tell a story of Mark Powell's research, finally, regarding different cultural responses to the parable of the prodigal son, because culture does shape how we read and interpret the Bible. Many years ago he carried out a research among Christians in three different nations United States, russia and Tanzania. He shared the story of the prodigal son. After sharing that story, the question was asked in the US why did the prodigal son end up in the pig pen, in the pig house? And the majority view of Christians in America was that the prodigal son ended up in the pig house because he squandered his money. And when that same research was taken to Russia, majority over 80% said because there was famine in the land. The same research was taken to Tanzania, close to 90% said because no one helped him, no one invited him into the house. Who is correct? Why are there differences in these responses? But if you look at the story, they are all partially correct.
Speaker 3:But each culture looked at that text, that story, from their own lenses, looked at that text, that story, from their own lenses and I think if we could come together to study and to read the Bible together and just help each other through different lenses to read it together. It can be quite helpful, for instance, to the Americans, where many people or few people can be an individualist and capitalist society. They saw it as a personal responsibility. He squandered his money and so he's responsible and so he ended up with the pig pen. And to the Russian, because of the history of devastating famine, you know, drought in the 20s, 30s. They resonated with that and they kind of saw nature as a problem. But to the Africans, the Tanzanian, which is more of a collectivist society, where you have the spirit of Ubuntu I am because we are and their lens of looking at the story was if somebody had taken him into this house he would end up in the pit pit. So culture, if we don't recognize that, we can miss quite a lot.
Speaker 2:Thank you for bringing up this example, because you literally answered my next question. Why should we consider these cultural differences? If the gospel is the truth, doesn't the truth translate into every culture? But your illustration just answered that question is, yes, the truth does translate, but how we present the truth has to consider the cultural background of our listeners. So let's talk about you. So what inspired you to dedicate your work to cross-cultural ministry and what role has your personal background played in shaping your perspective?
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for that. Anyway, the asset you hear today Helene's 75% Nigerian. I'm originally from Nigeria, but also there's about 5% of East London, 5% of Southwest London. I'm still trying to figure out where the balance percentage is from. So I mean, my journey began from the business world because I started when I finished university.
Speaker 3:I read business, admin and computer and went straight into the oil and gas business where we did quite a lot of work with the multinational companies and there I started interacting with people from different cultures, studied, came to London, studied at the Spurgeons College, led two very diverse Baptist churches in London for 15 years. They were quite very diverse. The first one we had majority it was a majority of white English congregation, and here I was an African, but I saw how God really used my ministry amongst that. Apart from that, I was also the chair of the London Baptist Mission Strategy Forum for many years where during the Olympics London Olympics 2012, we mobilized about 300 Baptist churches to engage with the London Olympics, and there I saw the beauty and the challenges of diversity in the city, and so that's actually one of the things that encouraged me to write my book my church ministry during leading the mission strategy forum and that's when I wrote the Building Cultural Intelligence in Church and Ministry where I began to run workshops.
Speaker 3:Because I saw opportunities, I saw challenges. Because I saw opportunities, I saw challenges and I also saw that if the church engaged properly together we can't really reach all nations within the city as our cities get so diverse. And currently I mean I'm working on a major project, working for Bible Society Gather Movement, which is a movement that mobilizes the church and charities for city transformation, and by city transformation we mean spiritual, social and cultural transformation of our cities and towns, christians engaging in that. So the project I'm engaged with is on reimagining mission in the UK and one of the things we're currently doing is intercultural church and city transformation. Just looking at two big questions what would an intercultural church look like in our cities and towns? What impact can we make if we work together across cultures for Christ's sake?
Speaker 2:So, considering this work that you're doing from your perspective, what are the most significant cultural challenges churches and individuals face today, both locally and globally?
Speaker 3:Last year I went to seven cities. I'll just give you some practical examples. I went to seven cities. I'll just give you some practical examples. I went to seven cities just engaging with church leaders. And after that engagement we met in January this year in Leeds. Leeds is a city in the UK and we were having this conversation just looking at what are the challenges. And we had a roundtable conversation where we had over 150 church leaders just looking at the opportunity and challenges and I think the key things that came out was, first and foremost, lack of vision and lack of leadership support.
Speaker 3:Without a vision for cultural diversity, church unity can really fault us. And also there's the language barriers. But there's also cultural differences. Cultural differences extend beyond visible aspects, like just singing, dressing, to include invisible. But there are also other, you know, underlying cultural values, communication styles, understanding and navigating these changes. They require patience and open-mindedness. But there's also the bit of fear and ignorance. Fear and ignorance can hinder meaningful interaction and foster barriers. However, intercultural churches can offer opportunities for learning and growth. Apart from that, there's also prejudice and biases, which can lead to discrimination and exclusion.
Speaker 3:I think there are some people that think that migration is a big problem. But if you look at the God story, migration is rooted in it. Look at Abraham, look at Moses, daniel, joseph, david, the people of Israel, even Jesus. There's always movement. You know people moving from one place. So it's not just a new thing that people are moving and I think as we continue to teach about this so that people can understand, it's becoming quite helpful. But unfortunately there are some few people who will support that far-right thinking in some churches, but I must say they're very, very small in number. But thank God that the response was very, very good from the church even from the communities in most cities to actually connect.
Speaker 2:So can you share examples of churches and ministries that are successfully navigating cross-cultural barriers and what made their efforts effective?
Speaker 3:As we are just now. I think we're still on a learning curve. I mean, from my own experience, we are all trying to learn together in the UK and that's why the intercultural churches movement is on. There are churches that have started the journey. There are a lot of challenges with it, but I think what we're finding is that the interest is quite high. People are getting really intentional about it, people are getting proactive, they're trying to learn. How do I do these things? For instance, we had a mass movement of migration from Hong Kong and then many from Iran, and before that we had from Africa. Even before Africa you had from the Caribbean, but I think now churches are learning to really engage properly. So there are a few churches that are doing it very well across, like in the city where I am, there's the Audacious Church, which is a very diverse church.
Speaker 3:I think one of the key things that many churches, the challenges they face, is how do they actually take this to the leadership level? Because when you talk about intercultural, it doesn't get to the leadership level where people can see themselves in those spaces. Sometimes it can be quite difficult to sustain it. Difficult to sustain it, for instance, where decisions are made. If there's nobody within the leadership level that understands the Chinese culture or the Iranian culture, it can be quite difficult. Let's just assume, for instance, a Muslim becomes a Christian and they join a church, that church needs to know that once you become a Christian, as a Muslim, you leave your family and if it's an individualistic culture, as you will find in some churches, that person is going to within a short time is going to go back, because if they leave their own family and they enter a church, they don't really have people to call. This is my family. They're not going to be able to stay in there for that long, because everybody needs a family, especially when they're coming from a collectivist culture where it's more of community, from a collectivist culture where it's more of community. And so we're learning to talk to churches that as you go on this journey, you need people from those cultures in those leadership spaces to kind of advise you, to kind of go the long haul on the journey with you, and we're seeing churches that are actually doing it now, sending their leaders for training. And one thing I've warned some of them about is don't just pick anyone who's not ready yet, because if you pick someone from a culture that is not ready and you put them in leadership and they mess up. You set yourself back 10 years because you're not going to even try to go there any longer. So take your time, train and with time you know it does work. So in terms of worship, churches are learning to adapt. You know, just bringing different kind of songs from other languages to sing together, that's going very well. And other languages to sing together, that's going very well.
Speaker 3:Within the intercultural church and city transformation, we are redefining what does good intercultural theology look like? You know, before now there was the understanding that there is the theology and then other theologies are contextual. But the truth is who says that all theologies are not contextual? Big question now is how does the centrality of Christ, how does Christ bring all those different contextual theologies together? So we're looking for how do we construct a theology that centers Christ when we come with our lenses, because we do not see things as they are. We see as we are. It's only God and Christ that can see the big picture, because he's not limited by time and space. But you and I, I can only see from my own lenses, I can only see from my background, from my mother, from my teacher, from all the places, spaces I've been, I won't be able to see from another person's lenses. So, and I think that's why, once we come under that big umbrella centrality of Christ bringing our own cultures and lenses Christ can cleanse that and we can choose that to his glory.
Speaker 2:Can you give me an example of contextual theologies? I guess I'm not fully following you by contextual theology.
Speaker 3:for instance, there was a term you know, when you say there's a theology that is general, you have Black theology. There are some people that say black theology, prosperity theology, you have feminine theology and all racial justice. You know reconciliation theology, and then you have the theology which is a kind of an umbrella, but what I was trying to say there is even the theology which is a kind of an umbrella, but what I was trying to say there is even the theology which is the general one that we've studied before. It's in itself contextual, because those that constructed it were from a particular culture. And so what does theology mean?
Speaker 3:We're looking at how do we scripture, tradition and culture? How do you mix that in a way that it serves us in worshiping Christ? So scripture is always constant, doesn't change. It's written. But scripture has to engage with the culture for it to be relevant. And so some people will take only the scripture and not make it relevant to the culture. And so that's where you find people. Just they go to the far, they're so conservative and that it doesn't connect with culture, neither does it connect with the church tradition. So it's how we mix all of that where culture, scripture which is given and the church tradition all mix up very well. So that's the example I'm trying to give to you how it all works out. So with culture we always come with our lenses, but how does Christ? How do we center that Christ?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm afraid that maybe here I'm not completely on the same page with you, because I think that this is the direction that perhaps could lead us away from the absolute truth of the gospel does require cultural sensitivity. How we build relationship with people, how we do life together with them, these are all areas where I believe cultural sensitivity is absolutely necessary. Your example of a Muslim believer, a Muslim background believer, accepting Christ and being cut off from their culture you know this is all something that we have run into in the course of our work around the world. However, as far as the gospel, I think essentially, you know, a heart that is seeking God at some point has to rise above the culture in pursuit of the truth of the gospel. You know where you cannot. Maybe I misunderstood what you're saying, but I don't think we are to tailor the gospel to fit into the culture rather than, at some point, the individual who is seeking God has to rise above their culture. You know, to pursue the truth. It's not the other way. It's us pursuing God and his truth that is ultimately going to help us. I'll give you an example.
Speaker 2:We have worked in China extensively since 1999. And one of the first people that we met there, a Christian that we met there, one of the first people that we met there, a Christian that we met there. She found God by reading the Bible. She had never been exposed to the word of God, not even culturally, you know, having grown up in the communist country where obviously the Bibles were not even available. So somebody just gives her a Bible. She's seeking after God.
Speaker 2:Somebody gave her a Bible because they knew that she was seeking God and they knew this was the book about God. So they just gave it to her as a gift and as she started reading it she completely couldn't understand anything culturally, you know, because she had no context, no background to help her even understand what this book is talking about. And so, but as she continued to read it and I'm just quoting her words she said it's like the light came, like a light bulb came on in my mind and all of a sudden I grasped the idea yes, jesus Christ is the Son of God. So she came to Christ through reading the Word of God, without any cultural context, and that's how she became a Christian. And I think this is the example of how the Word of God works.
Speaker 3:I think I agree with you. I think we're saying the same thing. But it's just that when we come to the scriptures, we come with our own cultural lenses, and it is that cultural lenses that interacts with the word of God. That is static, it doesn't change, like the example that I gave with the prodigal son. Now we filter. We filter things based on our backgrounds, our experiences, what we know, because we are limited by time and space.
Speaker 3:I can only be in one place at a time and you know, I don't know what's going on right now in America. So if I'm going to interpret anything, I come with that and when I get to that, then the Holy Spirit will teach me. So another person will like it's just because that guy squandered the money, but there's so much past to that. I think that's what I'm trying to explain here. But at the end of the day, this Christ, the Bible, the Spirit will change us, and that's what I mean by the centrality of Christ.
Speaker 3:But before that happens, we come from our cultural spaces but because of the dominance of a particular culture globally, we've always read the scriptures through their own lenses. So what I'm saying now is now time to listen to other cultural lenses and how they see the Bible. Because let's not forget that the Bible is written in a Middle Eastern culture, for instance, the way we've misread the Bible for many years. A lot of the Bible text that refers to community. We individualize it, you know, and so when we individualize a particular text that was meant to be for a community, we miss the original meaning of that text. It is our Father who art in heaven. It's not just my Father, it's my Father, but there's that community.
Speaker 2:So that's just what I'm trying to say with that contextual and I think because so your book offers some practical ways to assess and improve the cross-cultural intelligence, and we're almost out of time for our interview. But what are some of the maybe most important ones, if you can mention a couple of ways to assess and to improve?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think there are different stages. I think the first stage basically is to identify and develop, because in cultural intelligence you've got four capabilities. The first one is motivation, where you identify interest, intentionality, confidence and competence. Then there's the awareness of cultural awareness and fluency cultural fluency the second stage, where you begin to understand the cultural values of the different cultures. So to assess, we have a tool we use for that, which is self-assessment, cultural intelligence self-assessment.
Speaker 3:There is a free one we're trying to roll out for church, which is a toolkit. It's a kind of survey to help churches unpack and identify those who would love to go on the journey, those who feel confident and competent to go on the journey. After that you've got the way, you now begin to learn the different cultural values, whether it's low power distance or high power distance. By low power distance we mean the leadership that works in teams, like, for instance, within the Baptists it's very low power where the church congregation is quite powerful and the deacons, whereas within some Pentecostals in the Catholic Church the priest is very. It's a kind of hierarchical model, and so there are a lot of different cultural values like that that needs to be unpacked and I think there's a bit of how you actually now begin to engage together in terms of strategy, actively engaging and building relationships across cultures, and how you actually act together. So there's a lot of self-assessment can help to do that, and one that is taking. There is a feedback report people can actually see. That will help them unpack and they know where they are at in that intercultural intelligence journey. It's something that can be improved and I think before now intelligence was only measured with IQ, but with time we discovered that some people can hold PhDs or masters but they can relate well with other human beings, and so business discovered that, oh, they needed another, we need another intelligent, and that's how emotional intelligence came in to relate across culture.
Speaker 3:But as the world began to move in terms of migration technology, in terms of migration technology, we discovered that you may be able to connect and relate with people who are like you, but when you meet people who are not like you, from other cultures, it can be difficult. Some people are great with it, some are not, and that's the emergence of cultural intelligence. So those who have that capability to naturally just cross cultures adapt and connect that we tend to see they have a higher cultural intelligence and those who cannot. They can improve it. They can take the self-assessment and, as they get the feedback report from that, through training, they know where their weaknesses are, where their strengths are, and then we usually coach them and teach them how they can improve where their weaknesses are, for instance, if drive or motivation is where they're weak at. In other words, they have so much knowledge about the other cultures but they don't have the interest.
Speaker 3:One way to correct that basically is if you find a common hobby. Let's say, if I'm African and there's another English guy, we both love pets. Let's say dogs, for instance. Around that, that could bring us together. We both love pets. Let's say dogs, for instance, around that. That could bring us together. We both love football. That could create an interest. So there are a lot of little.
Speaker 2:So that kind of leads to my final question. You know, you're right. There is this massive migration that is happening into different countries United Kingdom and United States and so many cultures that enter. And maybe you know, for a church or a ministry it's not possible to learn in depth every culture that is represented in their congregation. So is there a common denominator that helps increase overall that cultural intelligence when it is not possible to in-depth understand every culture that is represented in the community?
Speaker 3:understanding that we're all created by God, and God created one human race and one human with different futures. As I said before, he created us in his likeness. If we get that theology correctly wrapped, the issue of superiority, inferiority will not come in, and so we can easily connect, because we are not created to compete with each other or to complete each other. So everything I've been saying sums up that. In other words, we are meant to complete each other. So everything I've been saying sums up that, in other words, we are meant to complete each other. No one person, no one culture, no one subculture is complete on its own. We all need each other and it's only when we get that right, because God created all of us in his likeness and image, not just this physical. Sometimes, when we see that the only physical is beyond the physical, we are a spirit, being that lives in the body, that has you know so, and God is spirit. So if he created his likeness and image, it is when we come together.
Speaker 3:I think the common denominator for me is God in Christ. There are other things I can talk about, but I think once we get that correctly, that will form a kind of a pool with others. Once we miss that, I think what has happened over the years? We recreate God in our own image and when cultures recreate God in their own image, they play God. So we've seen cultures playing God to other cultures as if they know everything.
Speaker 3:But actually we all need each other and it is in each other we complete ourselves. And that's where and I think that's if you look at John's revelations, where it's all going to end a new heaven and a new earth where all nations, all peoples, languages, all before the throne in worship. It is when we actually come together, that's when we all connect. And at the moment we have one mission go and make disciples. We have one message love God, love your neighbors as you love yourself. Grace, shalom, redemption. One audience for us to reach All nations, one family, the adopted family and destination Before the truth. So I think that's the common for me, that's the common denominator, and once we get that, we will flourish, because God will want us to flourish.
Speaker 2:Well, I can definitely say amen to that. Thank you so much for joining and we will post a link to your website for our listeners who want to find out more information or pick up your book, and thank you again for joining. Thank you, I agree with Asoba's statement that we are not complete without each other. I'm thankful that he brings the spotlight to cultural intelligence as an important component in the success of the Great Commission. Dear listeners, I would love to hear your thoughts on this subject and this conversation. Feel free to post your comments on the platform you use to listen to this podcast or send me an email with your thoughts to podcast at rfwmaorg. If the Great Commission is close to your heart and you're looking for opportunities to fulfill it, I invite you to visit our website, rfwmaorg, to learn more about how you can get involved. Thank you for listening. Until next time. I'm Helen Todd.
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